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Showing posts with label Old Testament. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Old Testament. Show all posts

Friday, June 13, 2025

In Memoriam: Dr. Walter Brueggemann

I was saddened to find out that last week on June 5th Dr. Walter Brueggemann, the Protestant theologian, teacher, and scholar of the Old Testament passed away.  From the obituary titled, “Died: Walter Brueggemann, Scholar of Prophetic Imagination,” by Yonat Shimron of the Religious News Service in Christianity Today: 

 

Walter Brueggemann, one of the most widely respected Bible scholars of the past century, died on June 5 at his home in Michigan. He was 92.

 

The author of more than 100 books of theology and biblical criticism, Brueggemann was professor emeritus of Old Testament studies at Columbia Theological Seminary in Decatur, Georgia, until his retirement in 2003.

 

His specialty was the Hebrew Bible and especially the Hebrew prophets, and his books were aimed primarily at clergy and church leaders. But through sermons, Brueggemann’s concepts, have become familiar to many churchgoers.



I was introduced to Walter Brueggemann by a Protestant friend of mine where she suggested I read Brueggemann’s most well-known work, The Prophetic Imagination.  I did just that and was quite drawn in, and had intended to write a post on it.  I had started that post but had to set it aside.  The theme of my post was going to be a rebuttal to Dr. Brueggemann, a rebuttal not in any Catholic/Protestant disagreement but on his social reading of the Old Testament.  To put it succinctly, Brueggemann is on the socially liberal side of the church divide in a sort of 1970s sympathy with religious church activists.  In the Catholic world, Dorothy Day would be a similar figure, as would I think Pope Francis. 

To be sure, I am not critical of social activists who live out the Gospel.  The world needs more people like Walter Brueggemann and Dorothy Day fighting for the poor, the under privileged, and the alienated.  You can read my memorial poston the passing of Pope Francis where I highlighted just that about him.  My disagreement with Brueggemann was over how he shoe-horned Old Testament history to support his social activist philosophy.  It was more of a conservative/liberal disagreement than a denominational one.  I found Mr. Brueggemann actually to be quite sympathetic to things Catholic.  In The Prophetic Imagination Brueggemann lists among his historical “three towering prophetic figures,” Bartolomé de las Casas  (the other two being Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King, Jr.), the Catholic priest and Dominican friar who defend the natural rights of the Native Americans in the 16th century from the rapacious New World explorers.  He is sometimes looked at as the first social activist of the modern world.  That a Protestant would even have known of de las Casas was a bit surprising to me; that he would list him as one of his three all-time heroes in history is heartwarming.

I had started that post on Brueggemann’s The Prophetic Imagination almost two years ago but I had to set it aside.  First, who am I to rebut an Old Testament scholar, and one of Walter Brueggemann’s stature?  I had read the OT but could I bring up OT history to support my argument?  I had to re-read major parts of the OT to find supporting warrants for my claims.  So I have been reading major parts of the OT for past two years.  And not too long ago I had determined I was ready to go back to that essay and challenge Brueggemann.  So yesterday I did a search for Brueggemann to see if he had been active in any way only to find he had died last week.  Well, he lived a good long life.  May he rest in peace.  I am now more determined than ever to write that essay!  I must admit that in my re-reading of the OT with Dr. Brueggemann’s thoughts in mind, I have found him to be more correct than I thought.  So my essay will not be so much a rebuttal but a qualification.  Enough on that.  Let’s get to a memorial for Walter Brueggemann.

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Walter Brueggemann was born in Nebraska in 1933 to a pastor of the German Evangelical Synod of North America.  He went on to seminary himself and became a pastor himself (ordained in the United Church of Christ), and then a scholar and theologian.  Over his life, he was a renown teacher at Eden Theological Seminary and at Columbia Theological Seminary.  His Wikipedia entry says he wrote over 58 books (his obituary said over 100!) and hundreds of articles and commentary.  He was a giant in his field.  Since I am not really up on the nuances of Brueggemann’s thought I collected a number of short YouTube clips to capture his importance and give you a feel for the man.

This video recollection by this Jeremy Duncan at Commons Church summarizes the importance of Walter Brueggemann’s work.

 


I thought that he captured Brueggemann’s thought here very nicely.  You can see how a conservative might look askance at some of that but I think Brueggemann is more mainstream than appears. 

Here is an outline of his great work, The Prophetic Imagination.

 

Yes, you can see how this is solidly on the left side of politics, but I have to admit his connections with the Old Testament prophets are solid.  Wait for my essay qualifying his thesis!

There are so many YouTube video clips of Brueggemann for people to sample.  He became quite an internet celebrity in his old age.  Here is Brueggemann himself explaining how one should read the calls for vengeance in the psalms.  Notice his distinctive raspy voice and pizazz as an orator.

 

Isn’t that right!  His exegesis is traditional.  Perhaps his social implementation of the Gospel might be more radical, but so was Mother Teresa’s.  After watching a number of his interviews and video clips, Brueggemann began to feel grandfatherly to me.  Here he is delivering a sermon on Exodus but tying it into today’s society. 

 


That was really good.  Finally to end with just a single quote from The Prophetic Imagination, I pick this.

 

“It is the vocation of the prophet to keep alive the ministry of imagination, to keep on conjuring and proposing future alternatives to the single one the king wants to urge as the only thinkable one.”


Eternal rest onto you Walter Brueggemann, and may eternal light from the face of God shine upon you.   



Friday, September 16, 2022

Faith Filled Friday: Does God Change His Mind?

This is a question I have had for the longest time.  Do our prayers change God’s mind over His intended actions?  If God does change His mind based on our importuning, then how do His plans all fit together?  It would seem there would be a lot of random events that get altered because we were persuasive and others weren’t.  We came across this on this first reading of this past Sunday’s lectionary.

The LORD said to Moses,

"Go down at once to your people,

whom you brought out of the land of Egypt,

for they have become depraved.

They have soon turned aside from the way I pointed out to them,

making for themselves a molten calf and worshiping it,

sacrificing to it and crying out,

'This is your God, O Israel,

who brought you out of the land of Egypt!'

"I see how stiff-necked this people is, " continued the LORD to Moses.

Let me alone, then,

that my wrath may blaze up against them to consume them.

Then I will make of you a great nation."

 

But Moses implored the LORD, his God, saying,

"Why, O LORD, should your wrath blaze up against your own people,

whom you brought out of the land of Egypt

with such great power and with so strong a hand?

Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac, and Israel,

and how you swore to them by your own self, saying,

'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky;

and all this land that I promised,

I will give your descendants as their perpetual heritage.'"

So the LORD relented in the punishment

he had threatened to inflict on his people.

            -Ex:32:7-11, 13-14




So did Moses convince God to alter His plans?  If so, how could God be omniscient?  Wouldn’t He have known Moses was going to come along to present a convincing argument?

I came across this very similar situation in Genesis chapter 18.  Now we know that God ultimately destroys Sodom and Gomorrah, but initially in chapter 18, He is “talked out of it” by Abraham.


20 So the LORD said: The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave,

21 that I must go down to see whether or not their actions are as bad as the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out.

22 As the men turned and walked on toward Sodom, Abraham remained standing before the LORD.

23 Then Abraham drew near and said: “Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

24 Suppose there were fifty righteous people in the city; would you really sweep away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people within it?

25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike! Far be it from you! Should not the judge of all the world do what is just?”

26 The LORD replied: If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.

27 Abraham spoke up again: “See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am only dust and ashes!

28 What if there are five less than fifty righteous people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?” I will not destroy it, he answered, if I find forty-five there.

29 But Abraham persisted, saying, “What if only forty are found there?” He replied: I will refrain from doing it for the sake of the forty.

30 Then he said, “Do not let my Lord be angry if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?” He replied: I will refrain from doing it if I can find thirty there.

31 Abraham went on, “Since I have thus presumed to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?” I will not destroy it, he answered, for the sake of the twenty.

32 But he persisted: “Please, do not let my Lord be angry if I speak up this last time. What if ten are found there?” For the sake of the ten, he replied, I will not destroy it.i

33 The LORD departed as soon as he had finished speaking with Abraham, and Abraham returned home.

            -Gen 18:20-33

How does one explain this changing of God’s mind?  I have always explained it in my mind that God’s mind wasn’t changed but that He was letting His interlocutor present His case so that God could do what He truly intended all along.  God knew the interlocutor was going to appeal, and for some reason He wanted him to do so.  Why?  Because God wanted the interlocutor to pray, and prayer is pleasing to God and beneficial for the soul of the one praying.  That’s how I explained it to myself.

Fr. Samuel Keyes takes this very subject up in a homily he published in Catholic Answers magazine, “Did Moses Change God’s Mind?”  Now Fr. Keyes’s homily addresses and integrates the second reading (1 Tm 1:12-17) and the Gospel reading (Lk 15:1-32) of the 24th Sunday of Year C.  I gave an explanation of the Gospel reading on the most recent “Sunday Meditation.”  I’m going to hold the focus of this post strictly to what Fr. Keyes says about the first reading on God changing His mind.  You can read the excellent homily on your own. 

Now it seems that my understanding of this theological issue is not wrong, but not complete.  First, Fr. Keyes points out that we have to understand God in a Judeo-Christian sense, and not a Greek pagan sense.

 

If we have a primitive understanding of deity and think of God like the ancient Greeks thought of Zeus or the Canaanites thought about their Baals, there’s no problem, because gods are gods due to their immortality or their power, not due to their intrinsic metaphysical distinction from creation. Yet the Jewish scriptures give us a rather different picture of divinity. And so, the statement in Exodus 32 has to be paired with a statement like that of Numbers 23:19, where “God is not a man that he should repent.” On the surface, both verses cannot be true. Either we must interpret the one in the light of the other, or we must declare one to be incorrect—something that as loyal disciples we cannot do.

What makes the Judeo-Christian God different from the Greco pagan gods is that the Greco gods are superhuman versions of man and not transcendent.  They are of this world.  The Jewish God is not anthropomorphic and therefore does not have emotions or compunctions and therefore the need to repent.  Fr. Keyes continues:

 

The second statement, on God’s non-repentance, reflects a growing understanding of God’s nature that we see unfolding not just in ancient Israel but among pagan philosophers like Socrates and Plato. For divinity to mean anything, the divine nature must be something transcendent. Otherwise, he is simply the biggest piece of creation. But Genesis shows God not just as the first thing but as the source of everything that exists, which means that his own existence is categorically different from the existence of all created things. More and more, as time goes on, the prophetic and wisdom literature of the Old Testament reflect this understanding.

So God is both transcendent and not anthropomorphic.  So far Fr. Keyes has put theological language around the same thought I had.  Then he gets to the part I had not realized.

 

God’s self-revelation, in other words, happens in stages. As Moses learns in Exodus, a full view of his glory would destroy us. We can only see him from the back, from a distance, in passing. But, as Paul speaks about it in the New Testament, the law was a kind of tutor, training humanity towards a greater capacity not just for virtue but for vision. It is only in Christ, and in the New Testament revelation of the Trinity, that we see revelation in its fullness.

God’s full revelation happens in stages!  Man in the early parts of the Old Testament has not come to theological maturity to understand the fullness of His being, and so God speaks in a manner in which we can understand.  He appears to change His mind to reach down to our level of understanding.  Fr. Keyes then sums up.

 

What does all this mean for God’s “repentance” in Exodus 32? Presumably Moses and the people of Israel do not yet have this full metaphysical understanding of the divine nature. So, the tradition suggests, God allows himself to be known in an adapted anthropomorphic way. God doesn’t change. But God’s will does take into account human will and response.

 

This gets at the heart of the mystery of prayer. God doesn’t change. But part of God’s unchanging will is that his creatures participate and cooperate in his work. He does not change, but we do. And surely part of how we change is just in this learning more and more about the God who reveals himself to us.

So God doesn’t change, but He wants you to keep praying because prayer and relationship with Him is grace.  Just like a father assembling a bicycle with his son wants the son to feel he helped or a mother baking a cake with a daughter wants the daughter to feel she helped, so God wants us to cooperate with Him.  Neither Moses nor Abraham changed God’s mind. This also explains why the nature of God in the Old Testament appears different than that of the New Testament.  

So should you pray to change God’s mind?  Yes, not only does He factor those prayers ahead of time, but He will love the relationship you build with Him.


Praise God.



Wednesday, May 18, 2022

Dei Verbum: Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, Post 2

This is the second post in a series on the Vatican II document, Dei Verbum.  

You can find Post #1 here.   

You can also find the online document here.  

 

Chapter 2: “Handing on Divine Revelation,” Paragraphs 7 thru 10:

The second chapter deals with three related matters.  Given that God has revealed Himself through scripture, His revelation first needs to be explained and handed down through the centuries.  Second, to explain the revelation requires an understanding of the tradition from which it was understood.  One cannot separate the scripture from the tradition.  Taken together, scripture and tradition are a deposit of faith.  And third, the Church was created to maintain and promulgate that faith.  Here again are excerpts that build the argument.

 

In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations. (7)

 

But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, "handing over" to them "the authority to teach in their own place."(3) This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face to face (see 1 John 3:2)  (7)

 

And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an unending succession of preachers until the end of time.  Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15) (8)

 

This tradition which comes from the Apostles develop in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. (5) For there is a growth in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been handed down. This happens through the contemplation and study made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see Luke, 2:19, 51) through a penetrating understanding of the spiritual realities which they experience, and through the preaching of those who have received through Episcopal succession the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her. (8)

Here perhaps are the key couple of sentences for chapter 2:

 

Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. (9)

To separate scripture from the tradition is to do what the Protestant Reformers did 1500 years after the Christ.  It kept the scripture but shucked out most of the tradition to create a whole new understanding of Christianity.  It was not what was handed over from the apostles.  Chapter 2 continues with the need for a “teaching office” to maintain both halves of the deposit of faith, and that teaching office—commonly referred to as the “magisterium”—is part of the responsibility given to the Church.  The logic of chapter 2 continues:

 

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed. (10)

It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.  (10)

Finally it should be noted that the teaching office is guided by the Holy Spirit, a link to the divine.


Kerstin Commented:

Once one is on board with both Scripture and Tradition comprising the deposit of faith one can't go back. It makes so much sense. For me it really was intuitive. I had never been hung up on this particular hurdle while still Protestant.

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Chapter 3: “Sacred Scripture, Its Inspiration and Divine Interpretation,” Paragraphs 11 thru 13:

The third chapter provides some facts about the nature of sacred scripture.  First scripture comes to us through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. (11)

God worked through real men with their own personalities and perspectives.  Judeo-Christian sacred scripture is not a quoting from God, say in what Islam claims of Mohammed from Allah, but men who use with their own words, style, imagery, rhetorical gifts.  That is the difference between inspiration and ventriloquism. 

 

In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (11)

Nonetheless, inspired text are still the word of God and must be understood to be without error.

 

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation. (11)

But the form and genre of the author must understood to derive the full truth the author is trying to convey.

 

To search out the intention of the sacred writers, attention should be given, among other things, to "literary forms." For truth is set forth and expressed differently in texts which are variously historical, prophetic, poetic, or of other forms of discourse. (12)

God’s kindness and gentleness, indeed, His entire nature is present in the text.

 

In Sacred Scripture, therefore, while the truth and holiness of God always remains intact, the marvelous "condescension" of eternal wisdom is clearly shown, "that we may learn the gentle kindness of God, which words cannot express, and how far He has gone in adapting His language with thoughtful concern for our weak human nature."  For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men. (13)

This short video provides a nice summation of chapter 3.



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Chapter 4: “The Old Testament,” Paragraphs 14 thru 16:

The fourth chapter is short and sweet, but the conclusion is vitally important.  It’s purpose is to give significance to the Old Testament and to make the bold claim that salvation history was planned by God and foreshadowed from the beginning.  First it states the special importance of the Jewish people.

 

In carefully planning and preparing the salvation of the whole human race the God of infinite love, by a special dispensation, chose for Himself a people to whom He would entrust His promises. (14)

 

Then too, when God Himself spoke to them through the mouth of the prophets, Israel daily gained a deeper and clearer understanding of His ways and made them more widely known among the nations (see Ps. 21:29; 95:1-3; Is. 2:1-5; Jer. 3:17).  (14)

It makes clear that there was a plan from the beginning, and the plan’s objective was the coming of Christ.

 

The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). (15)

And it makes the bold statement that there is a relationship, a deep interconnection between the Old and New Testaments. 

 

God, the inspirer and author of both Testaments, wisely arranged that the New Testament be hidden in the Old and the Old be made manifest in the New.  (16)

The Old Testament is not just filler to get to the New. 

Saturday, December 18, 2021

The Development of the Bible, Post 1

I recently had a remarkable conversation and learning experience on the nature and development of the Bible.  You would think everyone would know how the Bible came about, but while it intuitively feels we all know, but it’s actually more complicated than you imagine.  For instance, why do Catholic and the other Apostolic Churches have more books in the Old Testament than Protestants?   Protestants claim that Catholics added books, while Catholics claim that Protestants took them out.  This conversation started on a conservative social media I belong to, Ricochet.   The original post was highlighting Hanukkah and made a reference that Bibles don’t even refer to the event from which a number of Catholics retorted that their Bibles most certainly do.  The event of Hanukkah is told in the First and Second books of Maccabees, both of which are part of the deuterocanonical texts contained in Catholic Old Testaments but not in Protestant Old Testaments, and ironically not included in Jewish Bibles, referred to as the Tanakh. 

Why are there books of the Old Testament in Catholic Bibles and not in Protestant and more astonishingly Jewish Bibles?  I explained for to those that didn’t realize, but in the course of the conversation I learned something really amazing.  What we have as the Jewish Bible is not what actually was read (in Hebrew of course) 2500 years ago.  The Hebrew Old Testament is a reconstruction put together some 900 years after Christ died.  We’ll get to all that.

So these series of posts are my portion of an extended conversation on the history of the Bible discussed on the post “Canceling God: Hanukkah and Cancel Culture” at Ricochet.  I’m not sure if no-members can access that post on Ricochet, but perhaps you might.  The post started off innocently enough but unfortunately a couple of us wound up hijacking the conversation.  My main interlocutor is a fellow whose website name is St. Augustine.  Despite his name, St. Augustine is Protestant with a particular love for the writings of the original St. Augustine.  My interlocutor is a scholarly fellow (I thought he had a PhD but I learned otherwise) and from an Evangelical background.  He’s more of an intellectual than a fundamentalist, and scholarly rather than pastoral.  We had a genial and charitable conversation bringing out our two viewpoints.

I am not reposting everything said.  I am mostly focusing on my side of the conversation.  It would be too much to recreate everything, and plus I only feel ownership to my side of the writing.  The actual Ricochet discussion will be in regular font and when I step out of that discussion, such as this, I will be in italics.  I project to complete this in four posts.  I’ll define some terms up front.

 

Septuagint: Greek translation of the Old Testament 200-300 years B.C.

DeuterocanonicalBooks: The Old Testament in Catholic Bibles but not in Protestant.

Vulgate Bible: The Latin translation of the Septuagint & New Testament by St. Jerome in the 4th Century A.D.

MasoreticText: The Hebrew Bible reconstructed by the Masoretes around 900 A.D.



I’m going to start with my comment explaining why the deuterocanonical exist in the Catholic Bibles.

Manny:

Reading through the comments it seems that most people don’t understand how the Bible cannon differences between Protestants and everyone else came about. Catholics are not the only Christian groups that contain what some call the deuterocanonical books. All Christians except most Protestants include them.

 

What is counter-intuitive and I think confuses most people (and it confused me before I learned this) is that Christians actually had an Old Testament cannon before Judaism. There was no Jewish cannon before the second or third century AD. Notice “AD.” Back in the third century BC (notice “BC”) there was a large Jewish diaspora across the Greek speaking world, remnants of Alexander the Great’s empire. In time those Jews wanted a copy of the scriptures they could read in what had become their native Greek language. So across the Greek speaking world seventy rabbis translated as many of the scriptures as possible. This ultimately included the deuterocanonical books. But remember, there was no official Jewish list of Books that had to be included. That Greek translated Bible came to be known as the Septuagint, which stands for the number 70, which was the number of translators.

 

So by the time of Christ a couple of centuries later, the Greek speaking Jews used the Septuagint.  The New Testament authors all traced their quotes from the Septuagint.  When you see Christ quote from the OT in the NT, the phrasing is identifiable to the Septuagint.  Mark, Matthew, Luke and John had the Septuagint available as they constructed their Gospels.  Even in the Epistles, Paul and the other letter writers are quoting from the Septuagint.

 

The Jewish cannon, known as the Tanakh, came about after the diaspora resulting from the destruction of the Temple and Israel in 70 AD by the Romans.  After a couple of hundred years, somewhere in the second or third century AD, they put together an official cannon, and it did not include the deuterocanonical books.  What I learned last week inclusion was based on whether those books were originally in Greek or Hebrew.  That was for Judaism to decide but all Christians at that point had already a cannon.

 

Now, come 1500 years later and Martin Luther in creating a Bible for his new church is faced with a problem.  If he includes the Maccabee books he is faced with the theological problem of praying for the dead. Here’s what 2 Mac 12:42-46 says:

 

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

 

Why is that important?  Luther fought the Catholic Church over Purgatory and praying for the dead.  He could not keep that in or he would have been slammed dunk proven wrong.  Notice what it says, there was a collection of money to be taken for prayers for the dead to Jerusalem.  That’s no different than Catholic prayers for the dead given in churches.  Not only that, it justifies the theological concept of purgatory.  If there is no purgatory, then there is no reason to pray for the dead.  Either you’re already in heaven, and so no prayers are needed, or you’re in hell and no prayers will help.  Indeed, I do not believe that Protestants are theologically supposed to pray for the dead.  So using the excuse that Judaism had excluded these books, Luther dropped them altogether.  But by doing so, he took out the link between quotes from the NT to the old.  But the deuterocanonical books (as well as praying for the dead and the notion of purgatory) were there from the first century. 

### 


Manny:

But remember, there was no official Jewish list of Books that had to be included.

Saint Augustine

There didn’t have to be.  Neither was the NT official until centuries after, or the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha until the Reformation era.

Manny:

The official date of the NT can be traced to 382 at the Council of Rome.  But like most official proclamations in the Church, those official proclamations come quite a bit of time after it was widely accepted.  The 27 books of the NT can be traced to Clement of Alexandria (150-215), though he actually included more than the 27.  But the entire canon was officially declared in 382.  From Wikipedia: 

 

The Catholic Church considers that in the Council of Rome in 382 AD, under the Papacy of Damasus I, was defined the complete canon of the Bible, accepting 46 books for the Old Testament, including what the Reformed Churches consider as deuterocanonical books, and 27 books for the New Testament.[89] Based in this first canon, Saint Jerome compiled and translated the 73 books of the Bible into Latin, later known as the Vulgate Bible version, which has been considered during many centuries as one of the official Bible translations of the Catholic Church. The Synod of Hippo (in AD 393), followed by the Council of Carthage (397) and the Council of Carthage (419), also explicitly accepted the first canon from the Council of Rome; these councils [65] were under significant influence of Augustine of Hippo, who also regarded the Biblical canon as already closed.[66][67][68] The Roman Catholic Council of Florence (AD 1442) confirmed the first canon too,[73] while the Council of Trent (AD 1546) elevated the first canon to dogma.[90]

 

So the Vulgate at the time of Luther already had the deuterocanonical books.

###

Manny:

The common Protestant talking point is that Catholics put them, “added books to the Bible.” That is a lie. The reality is that Protestants took them out.

Saint Augustine:

And yet the Catholics call them the Deuterocanonical because their canonicity was formally recognized later.  It’s not as simple as “The Catholics added them!” Nor is it as simple as your account. No Protestant ever opted to take anything out of the Bible.

Manny:

Yes, of course and to be fair it depends on the spin you accept.  Protestants say he did it because he believed it was the right thing.  (Actually I’m not sure why.  What was Luther’s justification?)  Catholics say he did it to fit his new theology.  But here are a couple of more curious facts.  (1) Luther also wanted to delete four books from the New Testament: James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation, all of which contain theology which opposed his.  He wanted to delete four books of the New Testament!  Can you imagine how the Protestant world would go crazy if a pope declared four books of the NT to no longer be canonical?  Whoa.  Luther was prevented.  Remember there were political implications.  He was being protected by various aristocracy of the German city states that wanted a break from Rome.  Deleting NT books would have caused an uproar.  He ultimately didn’t.  (2) Luther wasn’t above manipulating the meaning of his translation.  He added the word “alone” to faith in Romans 3:28.  He insisted keeping it in after it was pointed out, declaring it was implied.  No he altered the text to support his claim of justification by faith alone.  If you look in today’s Protestant Bible translations, “alone” is no longer there.  It has been corrected, but Luther caused so much division.

 

So you can believe whatever spin you like about Luther, but when I look at the totality of his translation decisions, it appears to me he was adjusting it to fit his theology.

Manny:

Where’s the evidence they [NT writers] rejected it?

Saint Augustine:

I don’t know. Occam’s Razor, I guess, plus the grand total of zero quotations from the Apocrypha in the NT. (Or did I miss a quotation?) And the occasional reference to the OT Scriptures in ways that apparently reference the entire Tanakh but not the Apocrypha. (Although I have learned of interesting objections to that last one!)

Manny:

What do you mean that’s all I have?  Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and the others quoted from the Septuagint.  The Septuagint included the deuterocanonical books.  There is no evidence they rejected them.  If anything Occam’s Razor says they accepted them.

Manny:

I don’t know what you’re trying to argue over.  The Church had established all 72 books as canonical at the Council of Rome in 382. In the subsequent couple of decades it was defined in the Eastern side of Christianity as well.  It was accepted by all for the next 1100+ years.  No one in the Christian world disputed using the Septuagint.  Perhaps they disputed what the Septuagint contained, but the Septuagint was the Christian standard.  1100 years is about from Moses to Christ. That’s pretty defined.  That’s as authoritative as it gets in the preprinting press world.

Manny:

OK, so you don’t accept the NT writers all choosing the Septuagint, you don’t accept the various Church councils authorizing the Septuagint (and which other Church Councils do you not accept?), you don’t accept all the Apostolic Churches using the Septuagint as canon, and you don’t accept 1100 years of unchallenged precedent, then where did the Holy Spirit go wrong?  After all Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were all led to the Septuagint.  Christ says “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth” (Jn 16:13 and elsewhere).  Did the Holy Spirit lead the Gospel writers astray?  After all, the Hebrew texts could have been available to them.  It would not have required heroic effort for them to go to them.  They were available at the Temple.

 

And before you say, it didn’t matter which translation they went to, yes it did.  By directing all four to the Septuagint it established the prayers for the dead and therefore purgatory as dogma.  All four is not an accident.  Did the Holy Spirit after just some twenty to thirty years after Christ’s crucifixion guide the NT writers incorrectly?

Saint Augustine:

But I doubt that the Apocrypha/Deuterocanon actually is part of the Septuagint.

Manny:

Oh I never imagined that’s what you were referring to.  That’s why it kept going over my head.  I have never heard otherwise.  Where do you see anything to suggest they were not part of it?  I’m certainly not a history of the Bible scholar, but I have not come across that anywhere. 

Saint Augustine:

But as for the idea that they weren’t–Ockam’s Razor ain’t a bad place to start. But since the LXX is a translation of Scriptures, and since OT Scriptures are abundantly used in the NT, then we have at least two other reasons of some interest:

 

–the grand total of zero quotations from the Apocrypha/Deuterocanon in the NT. (Or did I miss a quotation?)

–the occasional reference to the OT Scriptures in ways that apparently reference the entire Tanakh but not the Apocrypha. (Although I have learned of interesting objections to that last one!)

This is a transition in the conversation.  While that first part (above) dealt with the canonicity of the deuterocanonical books, this next part dealt with the Masoretic text being reconstructed almost a millennium after Christ. 


Manny:

St A, I’ve been spending all my free time today learning about the history of the various Bibles.  I have to admit to you it is more complicated than I have outlined in this thread.  I’m going to write up the complications in a post, but it may take me a little while and possibly not by tonight. First let me address our questions here. 

 

Yes, there are quotations or references from the Hebrew OT, referred to as the Masoretic Text, but the statistics I found are the following.  Of the several hundred quotes and references in the NT, 20% are in common between the Septuagint and Masoretic.  Of the 80% which are different, 90% are from the Septuagint and 10% are from the Masoretic.  I wonder if the NT writers were sometimes using their memory of a phrase since 10% isn’t all that much.  But it is not exclusively Septuagint.  On that I can see then how you might hold to your position. 

 

As to Occam’s razor, no, I still think Occam’s Razor supports the Septuagint.  There are lots of OT books the NT didn’t quote from.  Because they didn’t quote from the deuterocanonical ones doesn’t mean anything.  The Septuagint was a bundle of all the books, so Occam’s razor would say if they relied on the bulk of that bundle, then the entire bundle was accepted.


Here’s a major fact I learned today which expanded my perception and perhaps alters some of my rationales, but I still believe the Septuagint should be the Christian text of the OT.  In the  third century AD, Judaism only established the canon of books, which books Judaism holds as scripture, not the official text.  But it did not agree on which of the variations of the texts was canonical, and given the loss of Hebrew it made the composition not so easy and straight forward.  The official Hebrew text was fixed centuries later, in the 9th century, known as the Masoretic Text.  What we have as the Masoretic texts were an assimilation of old manuscripts and oral tradition composed hundreds of years later.  So let me work on my comment that brings all this together. 

†